Why the tea parties don't matter

[bovil]

The "Tea Party" movement is a symbolic failure.

The original tea partiers engaged in criminal acts and risked arrest and imprisonment to destroy product from a company being propped up by unfair reduced taxes by the government, at the expense of what, at the time, amounted to "small business:" the domestic importers of tea who competed with the East India Company.

The current teabaggers are buying tea and throwing it around. That's it. When the DC teabag crew showed up with a truckload of tea bags (yes, I'm serious) to dump in Lafayette Square (because dumping in the Potomac is illegal, can't do that, after all) they were informed that they didn't have the correct permits to dump their load.

So they took it away. They're a bunch of pussies. "Civil disobedience" and "protest" are just words to them. They'll always cave in to authority rather than take a risk for their alleged principles. Samuel Adams would have dumped the tea right then and there.

If they wanted a real symbolic connection with the original Boston Tea Party they would be stealing Chrysler and GM cars and trucks from distribution centers and dumping them in the drink.

But they're not.

Pussies.

Comments

[madoc62.livejournal.com]

Andy & all,

It's a wee bit to early to declare the whole "Tea Party" thing a dud. The day is hardly over as you wrote your entry and the MSM has done its usual bang-up job of under-reporting anything that doesn't fit their oh-so-blinkered and locked-in ideological views. From what I understand, the San Jose Tea Party Protest drew between 2,500 and 3,000 folk of "a wide mix of every demographic - student/blue collar/white collar, age, ethnicity, single/married, with/without kids, LOTS of self-identified small business owners."

This, whilst "the counter-protest, in contrast, was ~30 people, almost all hispanic-looking, quite vocal, almost all "student" age (18-30)."

And that comes from one of the guys who was actually there.

The protest and dissatisfaction is real and it's deep. Considering that Obama and the Democrats have racked up a $3.5 TRILLION in national debt in less than a hundred days in office it'd be surprising if there wasn't protest and dissatisfaction. Sure, some of the Republican's doing their protesting are pretty incompetent at it. Guess that's because they haven't had much to protest about and thus haven't the experience, eh?

Oh, and folks, enough with the whole "Red State secession" stuff. Really, just take a step back and listen to how arrogant and bigoted your comments are. This, not to mention how factually incorrect they are as well.

The whole "Red State / Blue State" thing has long since made the rounds and long since been debunked. The divorce rates, illegitimate birth rates, abortion rates, poverty rates, high school drop out rates, incarceration rates, etc., turn out to either be worse in "Blue" states or at least no better than in "Red States." Couple that with the fact that the "Red States" are the ones which produce just about all of our food _AND_ they're the states which favor private gun ownership and, well, do you really wanna push those folk? :)

Seriously though, the whole "Red State vs. Blue State" thing is way overblown by the media. When you give it a closer look the nation is not divideed into but red or blue states. Instead, when broken down to the county level things turn out to be more purple than anything else.

And it's not urban versus rural either. The nation is pretty evenly split between "liberal" and "conservative" views. At least according to survey after survey. Sure, California is well known as a "blue" state - and that's why Bush got such a huge number of votes here both times around. And Texas is well known as being a "red" state and that's why Gore, Kerry and Obama got all the huge number of votes there as well.

So let's give it a couple of days or so to see more details emerge about the various Tea Parties that got held today before pronouncing final judgement.

Madoc

[sarcasm-hime.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they're upset NOW, but where were these huge protests when Bush was racking up the huge debt in the first place? Seriously. I can't take this stuff seriously since I doubt most of the people even truly understand what the hell they're really protesting about.

[chuckles48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they're upset NOW, but where were these huge protests when Bush was racking up the huge debt in the first place

You _do_ realize that Obama has added as much to the national debt in _90 days_ as Bush did in _8 years_?

And frankly, there were a lot of people there with a much more concrete grasp of real-world economics than you might want to realize or admit to.

[bovil.livejournal.com]

The conservative movement enshrined consistency in modern politics, so you're a dirty stinkin' flip-flopper.

The "Oh, but those deficits aren't as big" argument doesn't hold water. Common sense shows that you can't turn around a series of record deficits in just a few months. History shows it's much easier and faster to turn a series of small but comfortable surpluses into record deficits.

It's right up there with the "Oh, but this is evil socialist spending, not good defensy spending" argument.

If you're a deficit hawk, you're a deficit hawk. If all deficits are bad, all deficits are bad.

[madoc62.livejournal.com]

Andy,

Again with the "conservative" stuff! George W Bush Jr. was _not_ a "conservative!"

Not in the traditional Republican sense you cite. A self-described "compassionate conservative" he practiced none of that "enshrined" fiscal restraint which the GOP used to be known for. One result of that was that the GOP lost its majority in Congress.

And come on Andy, despite the Dubya's never seeing a budget bill he didn't like and somehow couldn't stop himself from signing, there's a world of difference between his fiscal lack of discipline and Obama's spending it like there's no tomorrow.

Madoc

[bovil.livejournal.com]

You forgot appropriating funds without including them in the budget to make the budgets and deficits look smaller. Funny, when we look at other governments doing that, we call it "corruption."

Obama is being honest about what's in his budget. Part of the reason the numbers are so shocking.

[sarcasm-hime.livejournal.com]

Okay, so what's *your* solution for trying to bolster the US economy if Obama is doing such a terrible job?

My point is that Bush ran up that huge deficit when the economy was stable. Do you think Obama WANTS to put the US into even more debt? People seem to think he's sitting around going "ooh what ways of ruining the country can I think of today?". He inherited a shitty situation and in all likelihood ANYBODY would have had to do a lot of the same things.

[madoc62.livejournal.com]

SH,

One thing Obama could do is stop trying to spend our way out of the recession.

You'd think that for a guy as bright as Barrack Obama likes to portray himself as being he'd know this. Spending yourself out of an economic downturn is but failure writ large.

The US tried it back in the Great Depression and FDR's policies had all about crapped out by the late 30's. Things were looking pretty bleak for the US economy about then and it was only the advent of WWII that stopped us from entering another multi-year recession / depression.

The Japanese tried spending themselves out of their economic downturn in the early 90's. Even to this day they're still trying to dig themselves out of the ensuing mess and economic disaster.

According to the non-partisan OMB last Fall, the US economy was largely on track to recover in late '09 and early 10. This was before Obama, Pelosi and Reid decided to break the bank and lay their hands on it all. Now? Numbers released today show the recession as _deepening_ and getting _worse_ over the next _several_ years.

That, folks, is change we can believe in!

Yes, we can!

Thank you Barry Obama!

And that's the central motivation for the Tea Party protests.

Madoc

[bovil.livejournal.com]

What was WWII if not massive government spending?

[chuckles48.livejournal.com]

My solution?
(1) TARP is and was a bad idea. Rather than handing the banks money, either (a) the money used should have been used to take an equity stake in the banks, or (b) the money used should have been used to buy and rehabilitate the "toxic assets" (which, note, I deal with on a daily basis).
(2) That load of crap called the Stimulus bill should never have been passed. If you're going to take on that kind of deficit, use it for capital improvements that enhance the national economy. Among other uses:
- educational grants for either workforce skills or needed degree programs. NOT for "soft" arts, but for, say, engineering (to address the HUGE shortfall in engineering talent coming down the pike) and advanced skills training.
- BUILD stuff. Rebuild roads that serve critical transport needs. Build power generation capacity, and transmission capacity. Subsidize/build/buy national, interstate, and urban broadband... and subsidize rural broadband efforts as well. Build theatres. Build reasonably-priced starter homes. Require everything built to meet LEED Basic standards. Fix water supply and delivery systems. Build inshore/coastal power generation capacity (wind and wave transmit a HELL of a lot of energy). Fund development of next-generation and generation-after-next energy technologies - "clean" coal designs, clean nuclear power, and the more esoteric stuff, like dark energy taps and nanotech-based solutions

Notice, during the Depression FDR put people to work, via the WPA, et al. Now, we're funding extended unemployment draws - longer dole. Spending the same money, but at least the first time, we got something useful out of it.

Lets be realistic: this crash was going to come, regardless of who was in office, and regardless of what Bush did for the last 8 years. Ultimately, it's a demographic hit, as the Boomers check out.

Do I think Obama wants to put the US into even more debt? Honestly, I don't know. As a means of pushing an agenda? Yeah. That being said, purely IMHO, while he may be doing something approaching the right thing at a meta level, his strategic and tactical approaches are, frankly, going to make things worse, not better.

And you seem to be forgetting that Bush 'inherited' a shitty situation too at the end of 2001. Or are you forgetting the 1-2 punch of (a) the dot-bomb, and (b) the post WTC attack hammering of the economy.

[yourbob.livejournal.com]

It's the "red states" talking secession. So telling blue supporters to quit talking about it...well. And I don't recall "blue states" doing that during the last eight years.

And as for the crowd size? Um. 3000 in San Jose, the ninth largest city in the US? Um.

And do you really think a rally involving "Obama = Hitler" and "Hang Obama" signs is about taxes and debt? Come on.

[madoc62.livejournal.com]

YB,

Oh, there was mucho "secession" talk coming from various "Blue State" folk over the past eight years. The comments bandied about here - replete with their bigoted "they're all a buncha inbred bucktoothed crackers" vibe - could've come from any number of comments made on the subject by oh-so-sanctimonious "liberals" during the Dubya's reign.

As to 3K in San Jose, I don't think that's half bad for a populace which here-to-fore didn't much take to the streets. If it's still in the single digit thousands a year or two from now then that would be more telling.

And all those "Bush = Hitler" and "Cheney = Satan" signs at those so called "peace rallies" were but harmless sarcasm of the Left? Come on!

This is the price to pay for such divisiveness in the political realm - and like it or not, the political left has got a far longer and more sordid history of playing up such divisiveness than does the political right. At least so in this country. Not that the GOP is saintly in this regard. Hardly that. But I watched the wretched excess of the Left over the past eight years and nothing the political right has yet come up with has managed to equal it.

Madoc

[bovil.livejournal.com]

Pull some references.

Chuck Norris (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91103) (granted, a nut-job celebrity past his prime) and Rick Perry (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/15/governor-says-texans-want-secede-union-probably-wont/) (Governor of Texas and elected official of millions) have suggested secession as a possibility.

All this talk of divisiveness. Sure, the poll numbers show a broad divide between Republicans and Democrats on Obama's administration. They also show that self-identified Republicans are decreasing in polls, self-identified "independents" are increasing. Obama's numbers with self-identified independents numbers are running only slightly lower (if not, in some cases, in parallel) than with self-identified Democrats. Sounds to me like moderates are fleeing the Republican party and identifying as "independents," which would skew the Republican numbers down. So not so divisive...

[theresamather.livejournal.com]

I live in rural Utah and have for years. Dismiss me all you like for telling what I see and hear in my own state, but it doesn't make you correct.

[chuckles48.livejournal.com]

Yeah, 3000, give or take (more take - thinking about it, 2500 sounds more real).

And do you really think a rally involving "Obama = Hitler" and "Hang Obama" signs is about taxes and debt?

Didn't see any of those, to be honest. Found one Bircher, but that's about the extent of it.

[bovil.livejournal.com]

Ah, Fox numbers, inflated by 300% like they were caught on live mic in Sacramento doing.

[chuckles48.livejournal.com]

Ummm, no. I did a body count whilst circumnavigating the crowd.

And you're getting your numbers _where_?

[theresamather.livejournal.com]

I live in Utah, and mingle with the folks every day. Call me arrogant all you like, but I live in rural red state America. I just call it like I see it. You can tell me I don't see and hear what I see and hear all you like and accuse me of watching the mainstream media, but I do not, and I go by what the people who invited me to the local tea party were talking about on our local email lists.
If you don't believe me, spend a few weeks reading the St. George Utah Spectrum, and see what the locals are really saying. "We're the ones with all the guns" is a popular saying around here.
Over the last few weeks at least once a week there has been a letter or editorial calling for secession.

[bovil.livejournal.com]

It is the heart of arrogance to tell someone what is happening in their own community.

I work mere blocks from the tea party protests in San Jose. The Federal Building is closer to me (next to where I have lunch on Tuesdays), but protests were outside the building that hosts the local IRS offices (next to where I have lunch on Wednesdays, it's a big gold-glass cube, always good for a chuckle).

I saw it with my own two eyes. It wasn't a big protest. More people show up for the gay pride parade, and that's not a big event. The Cinco de Mayo parade used to draw a lot more people.

[madoc62.livejournal.com]

Andy,

Did I say it was a "big" protest? Did the folks setting it up promise "hundreds of thousands of millions of billions of citizens will be there?" No?

For a first time out the gate, and for such a here-to-fore unassembled crowd, it'd be unusual for the event to draw such numbers as a gay pride rally in San Jose.

Like I said, if it's still drawing single digit thousands a year or two from now then that'll be more telling.

Madoc

[bovil.livejournal.com]

I've seen grassroots in San Jose. If you can't pull over 10k, it's not grassroots, it's comedy.

BTW, CNN, MSNBC and Fox were all on at the gym today (and every day). I saw no lack of coverage of the tea parties on any of the networks.

[chuckles48.livejournal.com]

I guess that makes this comedy, then?
http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/2008/11/10/News/Protest.Goes.Through.San.Jose-3534220.shtml

[chuckles48.livejournal.com]

No, it was not "next to" where the local IRS building is.

That's Market and San Fernando, looking up from the plaza. IRS is one block BEYOND where that cop has the street blocked.

Here's google's map to where that office is.

View Larger Map (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&q=san+jose+IRS&fb=1&split=1&gl=us&ei=-pbnSfSSO4mYtAPG17z0AQ&ll=37.320244,-121.906333&spn=0.058138,0.068874&source=embed)
One block PAST San Fernando.

If you're going to lie, at least do so convincingly.

[bovil.livejournal.com]

When I went past (a bit before 3-ish), the cops had Market street blocked at Market and Post, and that's where the protesters were. Now if you want to tell me I didn't see protesters at Market and Post in the afternoon yesterday, you can, but you would be wrong.

Oh, but wait, that wasn't your "official" tea party.

[chuckles48.livejournal.com]

Well, I pulled in at 5PM precisely (which, you might note, is when the permitted protest started, and when the counter-protesters showed up, and when the speechifying started). And all the action was in the park.

So I guess what you saw wasn't "official", any more than the nice folks who went black-bashing last November weren't "official" anti-Prop 8 folks.

Seriously - pick a standard. Just make sure you're willing to live with it.